Right or Wrong - Talk Parrots Forums

Parrot Behavior, Bonding and Training Discuss parrot behavior, parrot training, parrot bonding, and other psychological aspects of parrot care.
Thread Description: What is your Opinion

 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #1 of 9 (permalink) Old 04-10-2014, 01:58 PM Thread Starter
 
Julie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Chicago,IL
Posts: 183
Thanks: 11
Thanked 13 Times in 13 Posts
Rep Power: 8
 
Send a message via Yahoo to Julie
Right or Wrong

Hi Everyone,
I've read a lot of books and today's method of training pretty much is target training, more or less asking the bird to do something, if the bird is in the mood otherwise don't force them.

I attend a monthly bird fair and talk with the many bird people there who bring their parrots with them to the fair, not to sell just walk around to socialize their birds. They of course all wear harnesses. When I ask them how they managed to get the harness on them especially the bigger beaked birds they all said you put it on them, give them lots of treats and take them outside right away. And once their outside they learn that the harness takes them outdoors which they love a win win for them. so they are forcing these harnesses on their birds. Now when you go to the professional trainers they say no no don't do this, but seriously hat bird will want to wear these harnesses. Just like my dogs I didn't ask the if I could put on their harnesses but they love them knowing they get to go for a walk. So what are all your opinions on this issue? I do want to take my birds outside with me but I don't want to wait for a whole year before or if they take to these harnesses.
Julie
Julie is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 9 (permalink) Old 04-10-2014, 03:02 PM


 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Auckland NZ
Posts: 464
Thanks: 129
Thanked 287 Times in 179 Posts
Rep Power: 14
             
I would read what Barbara Heidenreich has to say about this situation.

I do not think you can look at it the same way for any other animal. Birds are different.
I doubt that any of these guys are using any type of force when getting the harness on for the first time and it certainly does noty sit well with my ideas of how we are taught to interact with our Fids.
It only has to back fire once and that is the end of them ever wearing a harness as far as I know.
Ok, so they may not like the harness on them whne you do get to that point, and that is why you must reinforce it as a positive thing with treats or rewards.
Before you get to this stage you need to have a very good relationship and trust to lift a birds wing to get the harness over the wings. Again if there is any panic here or stress, forget it.
My conclusion: You can only do this with love, kindness, trust and reward. Leave the force out of it. Positive Reinforcement Training.


A tribute to my lost ones. RIP.

Last edited by clawnz; 04-10-2014 at 03:05 PM.
clawnz is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to clawnz For This Useful Post:
wyrinth (04-10-2014)
post #3 of 9 (permalink) Old 04-10-2014, 04:00 PM Thread Starter
 
Julie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Chicago,IL
Posts: 183
Thanks: 11
Thanked 13 Times in 13 Posts
Rep Power: 8
 
Send a message via Yahoo to Julie
Quote:
Originally Posted by clawnz View Post
I would read what Barbara Heidenreich has to say about this situation.

I do not think you can look at it the same way for any other animal. Birds are different.
I doubt that any of these guys are using any type of force when getting the harness on for the first time and it certainly does noty sit well with my ideas of how we are taught to interact with our Fids.
It only has to back fire once and that is the end of them ever wearing a harness as far as I know.
Ok, so they may not like the harness on them whne you do get to that point, and that is why you must reinforce it as a positive thing with treats or rewards.
Before you get to this stage you need to have a very good relationship and trust to lift a birds wing to get the harness over the wings. Again if there is any panic here or stress, forget it.
My conclusion: You can only do this with love, kindness, trust and reward. Leave the force out of it. Positive Reinforcement Training.

Ive read Barbara's books and many others, that's why I said the professionals say to do it only if the bird allows. But I see these birds that the harnesses were forced on, and now they are happy and loveable birds and love to wear the harnesses cause they know they get to go outside. See that is my situation that is what I wonder what everyone else thought. I know what the professionals teach....
Thanks
Julie
Julie is offline  
 
post #4 of 9 (permalink) Old 04-10-2014, 04:28 PM


 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Auckland NZ
Posts: 464
Thanks: 129
Thanked 287 Times in 179 Posts
Rep Power: 14
             
I would like to actually see someone use force on a big bird and not lose blood.
Maybe we have a different perception of the word force. One thing would be a certainty is that you would need a super good relationship with any bird you used force on. And if using force did go wrong, it would or at least could damage how your relationship for the rest of that birds life. Is that worth the risk?
Do you know of any vids showing this type of action? The vids I has watched did not show any force being used when fitting a harness that I can remember. I have two one for my Cockatiels and one I hope to get Dexter to wear sometime in the future. But I am not going to use any force with him as I firmly believe I will lose. First I have to have his full confidence and him letting me handle him before I go there.
It does sound all wrong to me and my understanding of birds. You cannot dominate them or at least I have never seen it work. And the exact opposite to Positive Reinforcement. It has to be classified as Negative action.

On the other hand I have seen Barbara in action 3x times now and I understand where she is coming from and the relationship she can build with a bird in very short order.
It's called trust. She practices what she preaches. So has a solid claim to what she has written, as far as I can see.

It is up to you to decide what approach you take to this issue. Dominance can work that is why some people still use clipping as a form of control (dominance) to train. But there any number of reports where they have got the harness on a few times then the bird decides this is not on, and goes against ever wearing one again.
There is the other thing about taking birds outside, some birds will freak out just being outside due to the perceived risks they have. And this would be another negative action.

I am also interested in other peoples thoughts on this subject as well, should be interesting to follow the discussion.


A tribute to my lost ones. RIP.

Last edited by clawnz; 04-10-2014 at 04:33 PM.
clawnz is offline  
post #5 of 9 (permalink) Old 04-10-2014, 07:02 PM


 
wyrinth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: NYC, USA
Posts: 1,058
Thanks: 1,411
Thanked 748 Times in 515 Posts
Rep Power: 12
       
I agree with clawnz, I think there is a misunderstanding of the word force. If they are talking about a very hands-on bird, the kind that is very trusting and allows for "rough" handling, then they probably slipped the harness on without any trauma since the bird was used to being handled all over. Then, before the bird could object, they took it outside and it was distracted....eventually it learns that harness=outside.

Stitch Pikachu Thor Loki

BlazeCinder Sunday

Storm Sky
wyrinth is offline  
post #6 of 9 (permalink) Old 04-15-2014, 04:58 PM
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 18
Thanks: 0
Thanked 9 Times in 6 Posts
Rep Power: 0
 
I agree there is most likely a misunderstanding for the term "forcing". I can do pretty much anything to Oscar as he is well socialized BUT if I attempted "forcing" harness on him I would recieve a few nasty bites AND he wouldnt go near harness again.
The proper and ONLY way to go about it is through positive reinforcement training. You asked how a bird is supposed to enjoy going in harness....its easy, although requires lots of patience. You break down putting harness on in small steps and reward along the way. First is desensitation to harness and of course bird must be tame enough to allow touching of body and handling of wings beforehand.
I am in the middle of harness training my senegal. He was very afraid of harness at first. Ok...got him desensitized to harness. Then move harness close to body...praise/reward. For those that use clickers...click/reward. Soon touch harness to body praise/reward. Hold harness on body for longer periods of time watching birds comfort level....praise/reward. Target head through harness loop...touch/praise/reward.
I am sure you get the idea. I had a mishap where I had oscars head in loop and a broom fell nearby at same time causing oscar to panic and fly around with harness on him....freaked him out and he put blame on harness. This caused me to go back to square one and it took a LONG time to get him trusting harness again. I am almost there. Notice I said easy but takes patience

Hope this helps,

Wayne
Wayne361 is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Wayne361 For This Useful Post:
clawnz (04-15-2014)
post #7 of 9 (permalink) Old 04-16-2014, 03:45 PM



 
catalinadee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 17,637
Thanks: 1,593
Thanked 2,007 Times in 1,575 Posts
Rep Power: 99
                     
I completely agree with Clive. The birds you may have seen 'forced' into harness training would most likely be extremely tame birds who are used to being man handled. I imagine lories and caiques, baby macaws too, would be very accepting because they just love to be touched everywhere. Other birds however, no go. It may take a very long time, but it will all be worth it in the end

- Alexandrine parakeets Holly, George, Koda & - Crimson rosella Kasumi Orange winged Amazon parrot Paulie
catalinadee is offline  
post #8 of 9 (permalink) Old 04-17-2014, 12:48 PM Thread Starter
 
Julie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Chicago,IL
Posts: 183
Thanks: 11
Thanked 13 Times in 13 Posts
Rep Power: 8
 
Send a message via Yahoo to Julie
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne361 View Post
I agree there is most likely a misunderstanding for the term "forcing". I can do pretty much anything to Oscar as he is well socialized BUT if I attempted "forcing" harness on him I would recieve a few nasty bites AND he wouldnt go near harness again.
The proper and ONLY way to go about it is through positive reinforcement training. You asked how a bird is supposed to enjoy going in harness....its easy, although requires lots of patience. You break down putting harness on in small steps and reward along the way. First is desensitation to harness and of course bird must be tame enough to allow touching of body and handling of wings beforehand.
I am in the middle of harness training my senegal. He was very afraid of harness at first. Ok...got him desensitized to harness. Then move harness close to body...praise/reward. For those that use clickers...click/reward. Soon touch harness to body praise/reward. Hold harness on body for longer periods of time watching birds comfort level....praise/reward. Target head through harness loop...touch/praise/reward.
I am sure you get the idea. I had a mishap where I had oscars head in loop and a broom fell nearby at same time causing oscar to panic and fly around with harness on him....freaked him out and he put blame on harness. This caused me to go back to square one and it took a LONG time to get him trusting harness again. I am almost there. Notice I said easy but takes patience

Hope this helps,

Wayne
Hi Wayne,
Thanks for the advice. My birds do tricks, but they won't let me touch them. How many months, years does it take to teach them to accept a harness? I think I just will have to accept using traveling cages for my birds.
Julie
Julie is offline  
post #9 of 9 (permalink) Old 04-17-2014, 02:01 PM
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 18
Thanks: 0
Thanked 9 Times in 6 Posts
Rep Power: 0
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julie View Post
Hi Wayne,
Thanks for the advice. My birds do tricks, but they won't let me touch them. How many months, years does it take to teach them to accept a harness? I think I just will have to accept using traveling cages for my birds.
Julie
Hi Julie....you have to work on having bird allow touch and progress from there. I would use positive reinforcement to allow touch. Here is example....hover hand to the side of bird and move closer...you will see birds comfort zone. When you are at a distance where bird calms down praise/reward (if you use clicker then click/reward). Keep repeating steps. Soon bird will allow closer interaction as he knows he will be rewarded for accepting closer interactions. I am highly condensing this as process might take days/weeks/months depending on how tame the bird is.
Eventually you should be able to cup your hand around the bird with bird allowing...click/reward. Then start head scratches. Eventually "grabbing" bird. You progress at birds pace....not yours Work in the birds comfort zone and dont progress too quickly.
The above steps are critical to overcome/teach before you even think about getting bird in the harness. Bird also has to be comfortable with you grabbing his wings.
These are all taming exercises that everyone should do if they want a tamer bird.

Hope this helps,

Wayne
Wayne361 is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Wayne361 For This Useful Post:
clawnz (04-17-2014)
Closed Thread

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Talk Parrots Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome